I read their document a couple of nights ago

okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy.

The original leak of your document was in the early hours of wed morning FYI

That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny.

The antisemitism does need to stop though, I'm not one for political correctness normally but wow this is offensive.

LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/

Eve, yea sure why not, it means nothing.

IRL I doubt it, but I'm not going to waste my time going tit or tat with you on an obscure forum about a game a couple of hundred thousand people play. Point is, in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant, cuase your space gold will soon be gone, and your account well soon be ban hammered.

Good day space hero. I'm sure your mom thinks you're cool though.

I dunno, maybe read the *snip* thread.

Post edited due to personal attack
ISD Dosnix

So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP?

I feel much more space-poor now.

Not sure if serious.

The logic isnt the same.

If CCP remove the profits of this venture from Goons, will they also retroactively remove the profits from the guy who posted about how he built tens of thousands of battleships, insured them and then destroyed them for a profit? (this was before the insurance nerf)

How about the people who made obscene profits (possibly totally even more than 5Tn) from the horribly botched P.I. introduction?

What about the BoB members who used to rake in billions a week using titans to bridge freighter-loads of NPC goods from Delve for unbelievable profits?

So noted and I stand corrected.

Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved?

This is kind of detrimental to CCP-¦s buissnes. if really hundrets of trillions or billions or whatever of isk were generated and distributed....well a lot of accounts do not have to pay in real life money for game time for quite some time.

Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent?

In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?

Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way.

The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either.

So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now

Upset Goons are the best Goons

What upset Goons? What are you talking about? You sound like a crazy person.

Initially that is exactly what was happening though ...

To repeat. When you kill a ship in faction warfare (belonging to the enemy faction) you get loyalty points awarded equal to the value of the ship + cargo. These freighters that were being killed on alts were awarding loyalty point payouts (for the kill) that also counted in the cargo that had dropped in space (and thus could be added to a future kill and payout). That really is double counting and is creating (if not isk) then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.)

That (as I understand it) was the bug that got fixed early, but I didn't see any note in the op post suggesting that LP has been removed from the game - its even referred to as "seed" (or foundation) LP for the continuing scheme.

Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.

Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it.

Funny

It's the age-old "you're mad, aren't you?" "no, I'm not." "yes, you so are. just look at you." "no, I'm not mad." "yeeeees you are, oh yes you are. you're so utterly mad." "sigh. go away please." "mad mad mad mad. you're mad. you're mad. you're mad." *punch in the face* "see? I told you you were mad." technique.

because this only involved upgrading systems and absolutely nothing else

cripes

How would I know why you wanted ti distance yourself?

I'm really not, I'm trying to be pretty fair, if you can't see that then pfft, sorry mate you really are like that dude at the end of apocalypse now.

It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail.

I don't disagree. The current interface is a joke. But thats as may be, - its a joke that everyone has to put up with. If in this case (and we obviously don't know for sure) 14 hours of manual clicking accept has been bypassed by use of a keyboard macro - that probably is a clear case of gaining an unfair advantage through automation and should trigger the eula clause.

This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.

I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project.

i dont care if it takes away risk or take even more time to use a macro to aquire that kind of items from the LP Store. Its irrelevant.

Whats relevant is, that using the macro for that breaks the Eula.

https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801

any comments?

Just re-read the first post in this thread

so? Where is the Dev post that says: "Using Macro to acquire large stacks of items you otherwise need 14 hours of clicking for is allowed?"

What's there to explain?

You mean the GM saying:

"If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed,"

fits perfectly here:
guy uses a macro for not sitting at his keyboard clicking for 14 hours....

thanks Sir

shift key 3d r/o

So, in your reasoning, only 5 people were to blame for **** Germany, and everyone else was just along for the ride?

Loosing 4k asshats bent on abusing the game would most likely bring in 20000 more subscriptions.

But they haven't got fat sacks of cash from this so....................... fail

And luckily its not my job to fix the game.

The answer to your question is that the goon leadership will be paying their eve subs with plex for about 17,000 years.

My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.

They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist.

"I'll believe that when me **** turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet."

It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?

You are missing the key factor for the people who got the POS bug ban... they weren't goons. This kind of behavior seems to be applauded by CCP... as long as you are a goon of course.

Then there would be nothing to tell CCP Punkturis about, yet:

I'd agree with this if Goons weren't paying people they don't know to shoot people they don't know for doing something that won't matter in Barges.

Only if i stacked the deck.

No, they would throw another temper tantrum "Burn Jita" type event that really didn't accomplish anything, but show how big of babies they really are.

So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it.

it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.

The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument.

Because you didn't read the ******* thread, because you are ******* trolling.

Are there bugs that are not usage of game mechanics?

I doubt it was a knee jerk reaction. It was a follow up to a public company statement about a security investigation, probably had several CCP staff review it, stamp it. Dignitaries of dignitaries and that sort of thing. It's all rather complicated.

They do that type of thing all the time for legit gameplay.

Unfortunately the focus isn't on working as designed, it's working as intended. Intended being the same word the EULA uses.

I never said anything about banning anyone. But do continue with whatever you are saying.

edit: can you get your A team guys out here? this B team stuff is just getting lazy

People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking.

The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.

However gaming the market to inflate values of items

then blowing up ships

to produce ungodly LP payouts

This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you.

Keep telling yourself that B team.

Why would I do that when the full quote clearly doesn't make that claim. You are just being silly.

What you don't seem to understand is the similarities. Both are a violation of the EULA, it details this very specifically. Both are considered cheating by definition. If the one wasn't, it wouldn't be considered unintended and it wouldn't be detailed in the EULA.

LP can be turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market) - I'm really sure what point you are trying to make.

I guess the part where Eve is a free market and where LP store require isk in addition of LP just flew over your head.

Umm last i recall exploiting bugs

We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion.

What are you, Socrates now?

The answer to your question would be: with the enter key.

Ask Sreegs, hes the one who will be deleting the ISK that was not created.

Also, you can stop saying ISK wasnt created. Its a strawman arguement. Items were created. CCP cant delete the items (without backlash) because the buyers of the items were not all in on the abuse.

As has been stated rather clearly already, anyone found to have knowingly profited from the use or abuse of an exploit or other game defect can and will have any ISK removed from their wallets. No use crying about it.

I'm sorry, could you be a little more unclear? As to your assertion that only "created" ISK can be deleted, this is a fallacy. Any ISK obtained outside the rules of the game, or due to faulty mechanics that are knowingly abused can and will be deleted. To think otherwise is pure folly.

The fact that they have not yet sold those items is irrelevant. They have obtained items, whose combined value far exceeds the value of the items that were destroyed in order to obtain these ones. Thus they have already profited, and in doing so have unbalanced a system that, without CCP's direct intervention, will remain heavily damaged.

Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both.

Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed.

As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.

acquiring over 900 trillion ISK's worth of items.

And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!

good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away

How does this fix inflation?

PC Gamer never reported the tech moons, though. There's the difference.

**** me do you not sleep, what time zone are you in, are you some auto answering bot , are you a collective .......

By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports.

Well, the people traveling trough it certainly are not more safe.
The chance of your butt crack getting opened is many times higher, and given that who cares about terrorists!

I cannot speak for the buildings however!

True they never took away all the motherships that Bob/some others exploited out of the those events before they sacked all those player gms either did they.

When Mittens made you his sock puppet

I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.

Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly.

I could be wrong , do you ever sleep.

have toons in CFC

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626

the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned.

As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts."

So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair.

So at least the perpetrators know what to expect.

but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading

because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits".
CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much.

Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia

Each would be a case by case basis, I am not fully familiar with all of those, nor are they the point of this thread.

The basic case is exactly like the POS thread, an exploit was found and massively abused. The circumstances are similar so the punishments should be as well. It was not market manipulation that is player vs player. This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it.

Were more LP received than should have been? Yes.

So they got what they should have plus more. So they got Free LP. Go to a store its normally buy 2 get one free. This was buy 1 get 10 free.

Free LP entered the game.

So it wasn't a software bug that made the equation so easy to manipulate? Please see underlined text.

As I said exactly the same. It was a software exploit. Being able to "generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost", sounds like a bug to me.

The only real question will be the next series of posts either "CCP to soft on Goonswarm Again" or "CCP kick Goonswarm in the goulies". I doubt it will be "CCP follows precedent".

ok what the hell do you think a software bug is besides poorly thought out design. That is what makes bugs, well that and sloppy coding. Just because it doesn't crash the server or make isk magically appear doesn't mean it is not a bug.

If this was anyone other than Goonswarm caught doing this you would be first in line asking for their head.

And all of them were exploits that were subsequently patched. Some of the exploiters received the banhammer and more. Some didn't. That does not make it less of an exploit. But exploiting on a scale that can break the game will surely leed to some actions. In this particular case I don't think a ban is appropriate for several reasons (but I don't have all the information so that may change) and if it was on a smaller scale it would just have been patched and forgotten about. But these guys were aiming for the headlines. Well they got them and maybe some more.

No isk was added or removed from the economy with the POS bug.

What are you talking about. A bug means the design was poor. If the design was correct then you have no bugs!

Now a design thats poor, will have flaws. In this case the heart of the issue is a design flaw.

So Goons took advatange of a design flaw which all it really means is that they exploited a game mechanic.

By exploiting a game mechanic based on a design flaw you are in violation of CCP rules.

You cannot claim good design and say it has bugs. You cannot have good design with bugs. Its simply called bad software design! Infact one of the reasons you do a design is to avoid bugs/flaws!

As stated before it was the size of the matter and the numbers involved. the POS was by 7 corps, this was by 1 alliance and very deliberate, you can not say all the others PI and insurance fraud were all deliberate.

Hell I lost ships to stupidity and got insurance but I did not blow up hundreds and post it in General Discussion.

Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

Guess it's time to repost this.
Here's the link to start reviewing what CCP Sreegs has said, just keep clicking on his Dev tag and you'll go to the next one. Note these quotes are not necessarily in order.

So the arguments ongoing about software bugs/design glithch/yada yada yada are really pointless.

I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.

I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers.

Again, you can argue semantics all you want. If you don't want to read the messages that CCP Sreegs is providing, then you aren't willing to adapt.

Basically, CCP is saying the system was abused, they will fix the issue, they will clean up the mess, and they will decide about punishment.

Very simple. No arguments and is very clear.

Are you sure? Because, the OP states that this kind of stuff could not simply be tested on Sisi, so they waited until it released

Adapt or die. Isn't that what the Goons say? So, it seems like CCP is doing that. Any sane business or person would do it. If you and the Goons don't understand that, then I guess the Goons are not really who/what they say they are?

And you are now arguing they shouldn't be banned, the isk gotten shouldn't be forfeit and the goods bought with the LP bug should be confiscated.

That is as bad as it gets.

Have said it before the POS exploit and this punishment should be the same. Anything less is favoritism and anything more is too harsh.

CCP the precedent exists, use it.

Why the on release did they still proceed to exploit it? You surely can not be argueing that they should get off scott free even thought it was released in that state, when they knew perfectly well it would be deemed an exploit?

Then you haven't read or reflected on the things that Sreegs has said. One day you'll run afoul and will be permabanned. I await that day sir.

Will save time and just say this was also a programming bug as explained alot above. The PI, insurance thing you use in multiple posts now were fixed, with a lot of people doing it a bit, not a handful pushing it beyond all reason.

Now then. Why should they get off scott free? They've achieved what they wanted to do. Why all the butt hurt over the punishment, which surely they knew was coming?

So now your arguing that because they used a bug with wild abandon they were just showing CCP and should be heroes?

Precedent exists for this behavior and should be used.

Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect.

If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc.

Heh, nice try. Lord Tim is either trolling, or he doesn't have the capacity to understand the issue and what's happened. Basically, ignore him.

Is this where I point to Lord Zim's insurance fraud?

An FAIL #2!

Ok. So say someone gets away with murder. Could be they have a good laywer, there is little evidence, or it's simply the judges decision.

Are you saying everyone should get away with murder, simply due to that case? People constantly complain that CCP does nothing. Well looky here...they've done something. HTFU.

Or that exploiting a bug like the POS exploit with CCP giving permanent bans and destroying POS's wasn't a big enough hint?

The basic fact is they did things that the PI, insurance and all the other alterations showed CCP considered bad

adding to this they exploited a bug like the POS bug to extremes.

and now members of Goonswarm don't think they should get punishments

like the POS fools.

May wanna be careful about lying bout this

yes there is a difference the POS one

Kind of like this LP bug.

You did not agree with
"Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect."

Bugs/features are part of bad design. Even run time errors are part of bad design.

If the design is correct then we got no errors or bugs.

If the design is wrong then the implementation will aso be wrong!

If the design was good but the implementation of the design by the devloper was wrong then the implemented code is wrong and does not comply with the initial design and therefire the design coded is wrong!
In either case you will get flaws and bugs.

Exploiting known vulnerabilities is still exploiting.